blog.kennypearce.net

'By way of a brief response, I would ask: is it ever morally justified to attempt to bring about a happening which is "intrinsically bad," even if only "insignificantly" so? I'm not convinced that it is.'

Are there no morally justified suicide missions? I pretty sure there are. Bad movie but good example: the climax of the movie "Armageddon".

Or, for an example that doesn't involve self-sacrifice: the trolley problem in which you have the option to throw the switch. (Put enough people on the trolley and anyone will agree that you are morally justified in throwing the switch.)

dtlocke - I thought about including a response to this kind of objection, but it was getting too long. The idea, as I see it, is this: I would say committing suicide is never justifiable, but sometimes there is an action that is not in fact suicide but nevertheless will probably or necessarily result in the death of the performer. So, perhaps, because abortion is not an end in itself but only a means, it is more like going on a suicide mission than like committing suicide.

One reason I'm not convinced this works is the fact that in the case of late term abortions, babies are occasionally born alive and when this happens they are killed. I realize, of course, that their chances of survival are very low to begin with, and that many pro-choice people don't think abortion should be legal this late in the term, but the point is that I think this shows that it is NOT the case that we are trying to remove the fetus from the mother, or protect the mother's health, or spare the mother inconvenience and the killing of the fetus is an unavoidable side effect. Rather, the ACTION is the killing of the fetus, and these other things are the positive effects of that action, the ends for the sake of which the action is undertaken. This is not like a suicide mission in which the action is, e.g., flying unprotected deep into enemy territory, and the one performing the action does not see any way that he or she could possibly escape alive. In this case, he or she will presumably try to escape alive if any opportunity presents itself, it's just that he or she does not expect such an opportunity. This, I think, is a very relevant difference.

By the way, I am a radical deontologist, and trolley cases generally don't move me, so when I say "I'm not convinced," I realize that this may just be due to the fact that I hold a very radical and unusual position. Perhaps all the people who are moved by trolley cases will agree with you.

I was stumbling over "abortions are intrinsically bad" and about to reply when I saw "suicide is never justifiable". Have you made a case for that position somewhere?

As the sovereign of my own life, I reserve the right to end it when I wish to, for any reason or for no reason. I'm a little angry that you even ask for justification.

Craig - Firstly, the "abortions are intrinsically bad" thing is not argued for because it is a concession made to the pro-life position in Richard's post, so that assumption is just part of the parameters of the current discussion. I actually don't do a lot of ethics on this blog, so no, I haven't discussed the ethics of suicide in any depth. I am, as a libertarian, appreciative of your line of reasoning. The question of how I, as a libertarian, can take the strong stances I do on "private morality" is something I have discussed. That discussion is here. In short, it is my position that your "sovereignty" over your life, as you put it, does mean that no one is morally permitted to interfere with your suicide attempt (except by means of peaceful persuasion), but that doesn't mean suicide isn't wrong. It's just a matter of private morality rather than political morality.

That's a good distinction between public rights and private obligations. I still didn't see an obligation to not suicide proposed. I can easily derive from your argument certain restrictions; obligations you might have that suicide would entail forsaking.

People deserve wealthy life time and credit loans or just small business loan would make it much better. Because people's freedom depends on money.